Tuuba Time: 2019-12-07 17:12:07 | Local Time: 2019-12-07 15:12:07

You are not logged in.

^ #18166 2019-06-19 15:06:11

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Granger wrote:

based

highly insightful input on a political debate. i doubt you saw anything but 'homo bad trans bad vote 4 hitler deus vult xd' in anything i wrote but feel free to give your input if you change your mind and want to have a respectful debate.

tupsu wrote:

1) what is 'normal' is subjective bullshit and there is no way to define it. also, gay conversion therapy is most often highly traumatic, at times features shit like electric shocks, and has little to no scientific proof behind it. parents aren't allowed to traumatise their kids for any other reason in the UK as far as I'm aware.

Electric shocks/violence aren't prevalent, they're practically talking about bible camps and psychiatric treatment and more often than not, it's the latter. If you're referring to something like this article: it happened in the '90s. You think it's not a long time ago, but times have very much changed. I find plenty of evidence online of it having happened, but not in recent years. It saves children from domestic violence.

tupsu wrote:

2) there shouldn't be any difference between male and female prisons anyway and trans prisoners are more likely to face harassment/violence in prisons of the gender they don't identify with, which isn't exactly the point of imprisonment. why not take measures to reduce prison violence

I'm more for throwing prosecuted criminals into one pit and letting them rot; I have no sympathy for anyone in prison. Yes, I know persons who are or have been incarcerated.

tupsu wrote:

3) the blood is tested every time anyway though; the behaviour of a minority inside a community (even if that minority is a larger percentage in that community than the general community) shouldn't be used to paint the entire community
note that I actually don't have strong opposition against the 3 month ban because statistics (it's a problem that should be treated in the MSM communities via awareness and encouragement to use more protection), but there are some countries which ban it for a year/possibly even forever, which is just absurd

Ample time for risk groups to realise they carry an STI should be enforced to lower the overall contamination of blood. I won't get into the culture and crime rate relations statistics when it comes to immigration, but it's a good analogy as I concur with the overall idea of both that and this. Take that as you wish.

tupsu wrote:

4) some people feel immense discomfort about being labelled either gender, I do not see why someone should be forced to go through that just because 'muh traditional categories'. biological sex and gender identity are two wholly different concepts, which is seen already through the variety of gender presentation across genders themselves (oversimplified: not all vagina owners wear pink dresses on a daily basis, etc.) also, quite literally, people who do not fit into either category exist; trying to fit a circle into a sorting system of triangles and squares will probably not end well

Unironically I still think this:
9cc3.PNG

If we're speaking metaphors, the perfect circle is insanely rare and the triangularly-shaped spheroid can be altered to be a triangle, while the rectangularly-shaped spheroid can be altered to be a rectangle. It's up to the parents, they have the power to decive about their child until it turns 18.

tupsu wrote:

5) I agree it doesn't need to be subsidised (with certain exceptions that have little to do with gay men), but there should be out-of-pocket availability ensured. also it is a matter of public health and likely cheaper than the NHS having to provide antiretrovirals for NHS instead

I should have specified there should be no distinction between sexual orientation here. Give condoms intead.

tupsu wrote:

6) I mean, it's fact for a number of other public services? I agree it's not the government's issue though, the individual places should be pushed to provide accessibility

Not by the government. By the clientele, if they so desire.

tupsu wrote:

7) why the fuck would you ever have your genitals out in a school's changing room? also, why the fuck should a bullying victim be blamed for *being different* rather than the bullies for being dipshits?
often with intersex people it's a 50/50 cointoss of what gender they identify with, and if the doctors/parents happen to get it wrong, it's quite the adventure to in essence reverse a gender reassignment surgery years after the fact. let people decide what bits they feel like they should have, it's no one else's business

Yeah you've never been into the boys' changing room (it has the showers obviously) in school. It was a warzone with all the dicks hanging and towels slapping. We also pissed on one another in the showers.

tupsu wrote:

9) I disagree with parent-based sheltering - people can have opinions on what their child is taught and how they feel about it, but as long as the curriculum is neutral and simply explains the existence of these groups, it shouldn't be opt-in or opt-out. to me, it vaguely resembles the concept of trying to hide from your kid that Asians exist or something

I believe parents should be allowed to decide on their childrens' subjects on religious grounds. It's incredibly atheist of a society to force people to go against their respective religious scriptures.

tupsu wrote:

11) how is it against someone's moral values that certain people exist? if I decide that the existence of Jewish people goes against my moral values, should that give me reason to demand they don't get mentioned anywhere ever?

Nobody's denying the existence of LGBT or wanting to hide their existence. It's about teaching that what is defined by someone's religion as sin is normal. I think we need to very clearly define that I believe in freedom of (every (major)) religion and letting one's religion dictate their life choices if one so desires. No, I'm not a biblefag.

tupsu wrote:

12) if someone was refused housing because they were/identified as a woman (cis for the sake of the example), or because they were x nationality/ethnicity, I have a feeling you'd feel otherwise about it. any kind of non-changeable trait (and yes, gender identity is non-changeable in my opinion) should not be a valid ground for refusing someone government services

They're not by definition in a poor socioeconomic situation and if they have no background of being in one, they go to the back of the queue.

tupsu wrote:

13) I mean, it's pretty relevant information for the government to know; iirc our census collects that data. it is also quite relevant for interest groups to know that information, nothing about highlighting them or being special

I'll agree to me not knowing enough on this one, I don't know the application of aggregating overall sexual orientation other than trying to normalise it.

tupsu wrote:

14) this is a vague thing where causation can't really be proven, I don't really know how to address this in any sensible way. it's unfortunate that GSM people are kicked out more frequently but that's more of an indication that maybe general views on the matter should be changing so that parents would stop kicking their kids out

Yeah, I agree. You can't force a parent to accept their child but I think it's really fucked up not to accept them.

tupsu wrote:

15) first of all, any complaints about changing the act are pretty moot at this point considering there have already been several promises by the government to do that, but nothing has actually happened yet.
as for the contents itself, yes the government should allow people to change their gender considering gender-sex mismatch has been shown to be quite common at this point. the UK specifically has a fucking draconic system with that currently, hence why that act should be reformed. having an official document state that you are something you are not can feel like you are having your identity stripped away from you, and it quite clearly contributes to the general misery trans people experience if unable to transition.
moreover, why the fuck would anyone need an official document on what genitalia you happen to possess/what hormones your body produces? doctors, sure, but that's a pretty common-sense thing to mention to your doctor (and disclosing that to your doctors is advocated for by just about every sane person trans or not).
I also can't tell what exactly you're saying with the tattoos and marriage point, so if you want me to complain about that you might want to clarify that.
imo people shouldn't be changing their gender before 18 no (or even a bit after that tbh), but puberty blockers have been shown to be a safe alternative that reduces overall misery/dysphoria and enables transitioning to be easier for those that go through it after the fact (and if it turns out the person changes their mind, they just stop taking the blockers and experience puberty late).

>having an official document state that you are something you are not can feel like you are having your identity stripped away from you
I've tried to understand genuine gender dysphoria and I've interviewed transpersons about this but I've never managed to understand how it's so bad to admit that you were born in another gender than the one in which you decide to present yourself. It's literally just a passport and its purpose is to identify you as what you are and however you modify yourself (which is cool by me, by the way) you're going to be what you were born as. I can't see gender identity crisis being anything but a snowball effect, especially with how common it has become in recent years.

>I also can't tell what exactly you're saying with the tattoos and marriage point, so if you want me to complain about that you might want to clarify that.
Just the bit where such big decisions should be adult decisions. I went on a bit too long trying to drive across literally nothing.

Also, puberty blockers don't make someone fertile. Everyone knows transitioning will make one a surgical replica at best, never a complete version of the opposite gender.

Last edited by fittan (2019-06-19 15:09:07)



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18167 2019-06-19 15:06:58

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Apparently on my theme the picture I made isn't very effective as the circle behind the square has a very similar colour to the background. Open it in a new tab or something if you're using a dark theme.

Edit: holy shit i actually accidentally picked the literal same colour for the circle as the background of posts in the cobalt theme is. that's incredible

Last edited by fittan (2019-06-19 15:08:42)



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18168 2019-06-19 18:56:49

Brian OA
Liver Extraordinaire
From: Panama
Registered: 2015-10-19
Posts: 1,423
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Granger wrote:

based

I dream of a world where based is word filtered with epic win

Offline

^ #18169 2019-06-20 09:55:16

Granger
Cash Money
From: Germany, Kebabland
Registered: 2015-10-20
Posts: 967
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

fittan wrote:

highly insightful input on a political debate. i doubt you saw anything but 'homo bad trans bad vote 4 hitler deus vult xd' in anything i wrote but feel free to give your input if you change your mind and want to have a respectful debate.

Interresting that you seem to take offense on such a meaningless 1 word shitpost, maybe i was posting based not at you, who knows?

fittan wrote:

It saves children from domestic violence.

I think you'll find that psychological torture is included in domestic abuse so im not sure what foot you're standing on here. Wheter this "therapy" manifests in beating them for being gay, shocking them, or simply taking away all the nice things at any hint of gayness to be locked into a empty room like a insane person is traumatizing. Theres nothing to discuss here really, we know it doesnt work and instead of "bettering" their lifes it leads to psychological issues, making them no less attracted to people of the same sex, just making them feel repulsed about a thing as fundamental to them as a person like eating is.


I'm more for throwing prosecuted criminals into one pit and letting them rot; I have no sympathy for anyone in prison. Yes, I know persons who are or have been incarcerated.

You dont belive in rehab? Again, we know its more benefitical to society (and cheaper to boot, in the long run) to have a rehabitual prison than a penal one. Do you even know what frivolous offenses people go to prisons for? Hey you had weed, now go to prison for 3 years and afterwards be deprived of any life and worksills and be barred from normal jobs to make sure you reoffend (chances are worse than before) just to live.

Unironically I still think this:
https://femto.pw/9cc3.PNG

If we're speaking metaphors, the perfect circle is insanely rare and the triangularly-shaped spheroid can be altered to be a triangle, while the rectangularly-shaped spheroid can be altered to be a rectangle. It's up to the parents, they have the power to decive about their child until it turns 18.

What does this even supposed to mean? That you're fine with shoving the square into the round peg by reducing them as person? Says a lot really. What if i flip this around and use  parental power to force the child to crossdress, im sure you'll find this rephrensive, i consider both acts unacceptable.

I should have specified there should be no distinction between sexual orientation here. Give condoms intead.

tupsu wrote:

6) I mean, it's fact for a number of other public services? I agree it's not the government's issue though, the individual places should be pushed to provide accessibility

Not by the government. By the clientele, if they so desire.

Wouldnt it be better to have both medication and contraceptives avaiable? This hardly is a subject that affects only gays, id rather we'd treat the cases of HIV where they happen than look away and state "should've used a condom". Simply because condoms are not infallible even if everyone always used one. Im gonna go ahead and compare this to the pill after, which would be a similar situation here. The pill after wasnt avaiable freely until the goverment legislated it as OTC drug. Legislative issues by definition require goverment involvement.

I believe parents should be allowed to decide on their childrens' subjects on religious grounds. It's incredibly atheist of a society to force people to go against their respective religious scriptures.

tupsu wrote:

11) how is it against someone's moral values that certain people exist? if I decide that the existence of
Jewish people goes against my moral values, should that give me reason to demand they don't get mentioned anywhere ever?

Nobody's denying the existence of LGBT or wanting to hide their existence. It's about teaching that what is defined by someone's religion as sin is normal. I think we need to very clearly define that I believe in freedom of (every (major)) religion and letting one's religion dictate their life choices if one so desires. No, I'm not a biblefag.

Homeschool your children then. Schools are a public institution, they do not serve for religious dogma. I think its incredibly arrogant of you to expect society to bend to your whims, to hide that LGBT people exist, because you disagree with it. They do exist, schools teach they exist. School teaches that some religions consider it a sin (as part of religious education). Its not a schools place to say "being gay is bad/good". Schools are supposed to teach what LGBT people are, what they do, as part of sexual education so people are informed.

You can demand this of schools as little as you can demand a libary to stock only knowledge in support of your view, no matter what that view may be. Those are places of information sharing and education, not indoctrination.

Information must be free, for everyone to come to their own conclusion. Its a fundamental pillar of democracy even.

>having an official document state that you are something you are not can feel like you are having your identity stripped away from you
I've tried to understand genuine gender dysphoria and I've interviewed transpersons about this but I've never managed to understand how it's so bad to admit that you were born in another gender than the one in which you decide to present yourself. It's literally just a passport and its purpose is to identify you as what you are and however you modify yourself (which is cool by me, by the way) you're going to be what you were born as. I can't see gender identity crisis being anything but a snowball effect, especially with how common it has become in recent years.

>I also can't tell what exactly you're saying with the tattoos and marriage point, so if you want me to complain about that you might want to clarify that.
Just the bit where such big decisions should be adult decisions. I went on a bit too long trying to drive across literally nothing.

Also, puberty blockers don't make someone fertile. Everyone knows transitioning will make one a surgical replica at best, never a complete version of the opposite gender.

The fundamental you need to understand here is that we categorize people by their outward sex more than the gender. A transwoman looks, smells and sounds like a woman, and therefore will be treated like a woman. They ARE a woman (again i need to stress that this is a different concept from being female), im sure if you've taken philosophy classes you'll understand this concept. In this part (how people see you), gender plays no role, nor do the chromosomes anti-trans people are so hellbent on. If i dont explictily tell people that im trans, noone knows. Thats how it is, and how it should be. Medical matters concern only doctors and the significant others, forcing trans people to have a figurative star of david performs no other function than one of discrimination.
That a transwoman is AMAB is a medical matter much like if someone had herpes 2 years ago. It doesnt need to be public.

About distress recognizing yourself as trans, you need to understand that at its core gender dysporia (i need to stress that this =/= being trans) is a mental illness. Personally my gender dysporia is well managed, perhaps even cured, i transistioned at 18, on hormones since 6 years. i've no issue with recognizing myself as male born at all, thats what i am. Being trans hasnt been a concern or issue for me, beyond this talk, in years, for i simply live as woman and noone sans doctors and my fiance know otherwise. Its a closed chapter. A very bad flu i overcame. Or whatever disease you want, its over, a done deal. Noone needs to know that i had this disease, its completly irrelevant to any social interactions i have. I cant tell you how common this view is among trans people since those like I naturally tend to be invisible (unless of course having been denied proper medical care), but for me this is the whole point about transistion, being trans isnt a identity to me as much being deaf is a identity to me (being both trans and deaf), it came naturally. For me this has been the goal of transistion and cure for gender dysphoria. For all intents and purposes i AM a woman. Feel free to disagree and treat me like a man and adress me as one, but know that all you'll accomplish with that is people staring at you in confusion & disbelief.

Are you hellbent on knowing how often people you're not significantly involved with had [insert any disease] and want to hear about it in detal? Weirdo. Oh ill tell you that im trans if you ask, i just did without you even asking. Go around and ask people if they're trans or [any medical issue] constantly and you'll look like a nutjob.

>I can't see gender identity crisis being anything but a snowball effect, especially with how common it has become in recent years.
Increased awareness and medical progress, advances in diagnosis lead to a snowballing effect indeed, but the actual prevalence of trans people does not become more common because of this, just the diagnosis and so on, like it happened with autism for example. Do note that i consider trans issues different from the other gender issues that deal more with expression than a underlying medical issue, eg nonbinary and that stuff which led to a labeling craze about how you express yourself, where being trans deals more with changing your sex (which often involves a change in expression but doesnt have to).

>Also, puberty blockers don't make someone fertile.
Well they're supposed to delay this so, duh. If your issue is a girl not becoming fertile at the age of 12-13 then im gonna call this a really weird hill to die on. Or for the boys a year or two later. Furthermore if this is truly a issue why dont you do something about the far more common scencario of a naturally late puberty?


Life is like a box of chocolates. But theres no candies in there for you.

Offline

^ #18170 2019-06-20 14:34:24

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Granger wrote:

Interresting that you seem to take offense on such a meaningless 1 word shitpost, maybe i was posting based not at you, who knows?

consider it an intentionally instigating invitation to join the discussion. nobody would ever have believed you meant that at me, we're all acquainted from before considering this is a circlejerk forum.

Granger wrote:

I think you'll find that psychological torture is included in domestic abuse so im not sure what foot you're standing on here. Wheter this "therapy" manifests in beating them for being gay, shocking them, or simply taking away all the nice things at any hint of gayness to be locked into a empty room like a insane person is traumatizing. Theres nothing to discuss here really, we know it doesnt work and instead of "bettering" their lifes it leads to psychological issues, making them no less attracted to people of the same sex, just making them feel repulsed about a thing as fundamental to them as a person like eating is.

You're missing my point. The parents who would send children to re-education are the same parents who would beat them for being LGBT. If this is the peaceful option, I think it needs to stay for a while.

Granger wrote:

You dont belive in rehab? Again, we know its more benefitical to society (and cheaper to boot, in the long run) to have a rehabitual prison than a penal one. Do you even know what frivolous offenses people go to prisons for? Hey you had weed, now go to prison for 3 years and afterwards be deprived of any life and worksills and be barred from normal jobs to make sure you reoffend (chances are worse than before) just to live.

I've lost faith in rehab after seeing what our prisons manage to do (nothing) to rehabilitate criminals (my relatives). We're never going to go into depth about what they have done.

Granger wrote:

What does this even supposed to mean? That you're fine with shoving the square into the round peg by reducing them as person? Says a lot really. What if i flip this around and use  parental power to force the child to crossdress, im sure you'll find this rephrensive, i consider both acts unacceptable.

It means you're operating off the malfunctioning other organ or feeding them hormones so they can live a better life as a defined member of the sex they more closely resemble at birth.

Granger wrote:

Wouldnt it be better to have both medication and contraceptives avaiable? This hardly is a subject that affects only gays, id rather we'd treat the cases of HIV where they happen than look away and state "should've used a condom". Simply because condoms are not infallible even if everyone always used one. Im gonna go ahead and compare this to the pill after, which would be a similar situation here. The pill after wasnt avaiable freely until the goverment legislated it as OTC drug. Legislative issues by definition require goverment involvement.

The thing is, these pills are consumed on a daily basis and do not cure HIV or work the way a day-after regret pill does. They increase immunity to becoming infected with HIV when taken daily, a lot like antihistamine capsules which also do not just suddenly make your allergies go away. I don't see why the government should pay for these when much cheaper contraceptives exist.

Granger wrote:

Homeschool your children then. Schools are a public institution, they do not serve for religious dogma. I think its incredibly arrogant of you to expect society to bend to your whims, to hide that LGBT people exist, because you disagree with it. They do exist, schools teach they exist. School teaches that some religions consider it a sin (as part of religious education). Its not a schools place to say "being gay is bad/good". Schools are supposed to teach what LGBT people are, what they do, as part of sexual education so people are informed.

You can demand this of schools as little as you can demand a libary to stock only knowledge in support of your view, no matter what that view may be. Those are places of information sharing and education, not indoctrination.

Information must be free, for everyone to come to their own conclusion. Its a fundamental pillar of democracy even.

I took nine years of theology in school, didn't you? Children whose parents objected to this took cultural exposure classes instead, I think they were (when very roughly translated) called "Life lessons". I attended one of those in lower secondary school, they talked about Hindi people that lesson. Information already is free, nobody is censoring anything. You're allowed to look anything you want up and the school is allowed to teach anything but instigating religious beliefs or cultural differences is something that the curriculum should tread very carefully with and not call parents bigoted when they get mad.

Granger wrote:

The fundamental you need to understand here is that we categorize people by their outward sex more than the gender. A transwoman looks, smells and sounds like a woman, and therefore will be treated like a woman. They ARE a woman (again i need to stress that this is a different concept from being female), im sure if you've taken philosophy classes you'll understand this concept. In this part (how people see you), gender plays no role, nor do the chromosomes anti-trans people are so hellbent on. If i dont explictily tell people that im trans, noone knows. Thats how it is, and how it should be. Medical matters concern only doctors and the significant others, forcing trans people to have a figurative star of david performs no other function than one of discrimination.
That a transwoman is AMAB is a medical matter much like if someone had herpes 2 years ago. It doesnt need to be public.

About distress recognizing yourself as trans, you need to understand that at its core gender dysporia (i need to stress that this =/= being trans) is a mental illness. Personally my gender dysporia is well managed, perhaps even cured, i transistioned at 18, on hormones since 6 years. i've no issue with recognizing myself as male born at all, thats what i am. Being trans hasnt been a concern or issue for me, beyond this talk, in years, for i simply live as woman and noone sans doctors and my fiance know otherwise. Its a closed chapter. A very bad flu i overcame. Or whatever disease you want, its over, a done deal. Noone needs to know that i had this disease, its completly irrelevant to any social interactions i have.

I cant tell you how common this view is among trans people since those like I naturally tend to be invisible (unless of course having been denied proper medical care), but for me this is the whole point about transistion, being trans isnt a identity to me as much being deaf is a identity to me (being both trans and deaf), it came naturally. For me this has been the goal of transistion and cure for gender dysphoria. For all intents and purposes i AM a woman. Feel free to disagree and treat me like a man and adress me as one, but know that all you'll accomplish with that is people staring at you in confusion & disbelief.

Are you hellbent on knowing how often people you're not significantly involved with had [insert any disease] and want to hear about it in detal? Weirdo. Oh ill tell you that im trans if you ask, i just did without you even asking. Go around and ask people if they're trans or [any medical issue] constantly and you'll look like a nutjob.

For the record, I apologise if I've been drunk and treated you like shit before. I think I've just been as big of a cunt to you as I am to most non-Finns, though. I think I'm perceiving that I have from your message.

You're likening philosophy to medical science, I'm not a fan. Whatever people mean with gender these days is too abstract for me to grasp, which is always what's caused me to struggle so much with understanding the dysphoria. I have a hard time disconnecting it from sex and no psychological study I've read has made me agree that they're different. I'm probably too apathetic towards it, I've never cared about what gender someone is despite naturally floating towards dudes my whole life (as in cliques), they're just easier to be around but exceptions are plenty. I'm also not incredibly emotional or exciteable, which most women I know seem to be. I guess I've also never fancied anyone in my life, I'm very distant when it comes to love. I don't know what point I'm trying to drive across here other than that I disagree with the psychology behind gender identity. I'm allowed to do that, I think we're accepting the theory too easily in the name of tolerance.

I'll admit that pronouns and all that redundant mountain-out-of-a-molehill bullshit go way above my head and I just 'they' online (and in spoken English) until I think I need to specify, which I don't really ever do. It's easier and becomes very natural after a while.

Granger wrote:

Increased awareness and medical progress, advances in diagnosis lead to a snowballing effect indeed, but the actual prevalence of trans people does not become more common because of this, just the diagnosis and so on, like it happened with autism for example. Do note that i consider trans issues different from the other gender issues that deal more with expression than a underlying medical issue, eg nonbinary and that stuff which led to a labeling craze about how you express yourself, where being trans deals more with changing your sex (which often involves a change in expression but doesnt have to).

I still see it as something of a fad, sadly so. It's much more common in the video games/netizen world than it is outside of it and it's not because the internet is somehow more liberal. I closely relate it to quarter-life crisis and finding yourself in communities where more and more people are claiming transgender traits so it becomes trendy and others follow suit; it's a way to stand out. I think we're all familiar with the term transtrend(er), which I find very accurate for the time period of 2015-202X. It'll pass.

Granger wrote:

>Also, puberty blockers don't make someone fertile.
Well they're supposed to delay this so, duh. If your issue is a girl not becoming fertile at the age of 12-13 then im gonna call this a really weird hill to die on. Or for the boys a year or two later. Furthermore if this is truly a issue why dont you do something about the far more common scencario of a naturally late puberty?

Please don't accuse me of that.
What I mean is that beginning transitioning by blocking puberty doesn't result in a fertile sex change (as in functioning sexual organs), nothing we know of does.
I have more of an issue with how early people are to enter puberty these days due to growth hormones in foods we eat.



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18171 2019-06-20 22:23:06

Granger
Cash Money
From: Germany, Kebabland
Registered: 2015-10-20
Posts: 967
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

>You're likening philosophy to medical science, I'm not a fan.

Let me clarify, that philosophy part specifically refers to "i am a woman because people see me as one", which is the philosophical to the social phenomen, much like how someone becomes a top-player because others consider them one.
That specific part has nothing to do with medical science, but sociel science, which in itself is largely based on philosophy.

>Whatever people mean with gender these days is too abstract for me to grasp, which is always what's caused me to struggle so much with understanding the dysphoria.
For the other part it might be easier if you take this apart into 3 scales.

Sex.
Sex simply is your phyiscal, and the easiest of those concepts, ranging from masculine (male) to feminime (female).

Gender.
Gender concerns itself with matters of identity, "who am i, who do i want to be", in short, how you see yourself. (This might be "I am a tomboy/want to be a tomboy".)
I wanna note here that this hardly is exclusive to trans people, everyone has a gender and gender inconguencies manifest in pretty much everyone in comparision to how others see and identify you or what you might currently be. Its the self, philosophically speaking.

Expression.
Expression is how you show yourself to others, how you dress yourself, your manners and so on. What ultimatively leads to what you're being identified as, in some cases combined with your sex. ([name] is such a tomboy!) Fairly straighforward?

What makes gender dysphoria a mental illness is the strongly intensified discomfort between how you see yourself and what you might be. Consider for example how unhappy you are with, say, going into exremes, being called a nazi when you aint (at least as far you see yourself), normally not hugely distressing, but in this mental illness this is greatly exaggerated to the point of being unbearable. Hope that helps?

What trans people do is change their sex to match what they see themselfes as, often involving a change in expression also because of external factors where it wasnt acceptable for them to express themselfes that way. (yknow how girly boys get bullied or being different?)

Pronouns and all that jazz is completly aside from these things. (but i find it great you're using the grammatically correct they where apporative. Thats just something everyone should do irregardless of trans peoples existence.)

>Please don't accuse me of that.
I did not mean to accuse you of pedophilia, apologies.
Whats your point here exactly? Transistioning without piror puberty blocking likewise results in infertility. (Though theres hoping we'll attain this in the future, there are experiments with lab grown uteri and transplants. Looking forward to it! Last things i read that they've gone from organ transplants that are in only until delivery following artifical impregnation to creating organs we might be able to keep in on the basis that they're not donated, but cloned, potentially allowing a woman to experience periods again. No such tests in trans people yet though, for those cloned organs.)

>I took nine years of theology in school, didn't you?
Theological class was mandatory in all my high-school years (10). It dealt with explaining the various religions (including the hindi from your example) and their views while abstaining from making political statements. (eg i wasnt taught that Jesus is THE saviour, but that Jesus is the saviour according to the Christian (and its sub branches). It dealt with a lot of theological theory, the similarities between the 3 major religions, their common roots for example.
You could not opt out of it. Thats what, imo, everyone should have been taught.

Latter at higher school levels i had the choice of various specific theological courses (think some university-like school level), but i picked none of them for my curriculum so i cant speak about their contents, but i suspect it would go further into how (for a christian course anyway) the bible was interpreted, and what the reasons were behind the interpretations. (like how "gays are sinners to burn in hell", when the scriptures never state as such, just retell tales of kings legislating against sodomy or how jesus taught forgiveness but peoples actions afterward were not as such)

>They increase immunity to becoming infected with HIV when taken daily
Im pretty sure they work the other way around, given to people already infected with HIV to supress their symptoms and infectivity. Which absolutely is something we should make avaiable freely and subsidize, because the point isnt to bail out that specific person, but to protect others, it works in tandem with encouraging condom use. Doing so protects you even, reducing your risk to ever contract HIV.

>You're missing my point. The parents who would send children to re-education are the same parents who would beat them for being LGBT. If this is the peaceful option, I think it needs to stay for a while.
Dont we have child protective services for this? Theres nothing better about putting them into those torture camps.


Life is like a box of chocolates. But theres no candies in there for you.

Offline

^ #18172 2019-06-20 22:45:13

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

I promise a reply when I'm not piss drunk (i.e. when it's not midsummer holidays in Finland). It'll take a few days.

edit: still can't differentiate i.e. and e.g. even though i've spent years trying to

Last edited by fittan (2019-06-20 22:56:01)



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18173 2019-06-24 11:25:21

IppE
Complaints Department
From: Funland
Registered: 2015-10-19
Posts: 2,294
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Brian OA wrote:
Granger wrote:

based

I dream of a world where based is word filtered with epic win

I could add a filter for that, but I think we'll keep the word filtering to that one word.

It's nice to see people actually talking here, should consider taking part in conversations myself sometimes.

Offline

^ #18174 2019-06-25 18:04:39

Granger
Cash Money
From: Germany, Kebabland
Registered: 2015-10-20
Posts: 967
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

d6OUVNw.jpg


Life is like a box of chocolates. But theres no candies in there for you.

Offline

^ #18175 2019-06-26 17:02:20

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Granger wrote:

>You're likening philosophy to medical science, I'm not a fan.

Let me clarify, that philosophy part specifically refers to "i am a woman because people see me as one", which is the philosophical to the social phenomen, much like how someone becomes a top-player because others consider them one.
That specific part has nothing to do with medical science, but sociel science, which in itself is largely based on philosophy.

I have a super hard time likening being "a leader/alpha" with being a woman edit: with becoming the opposite sex/gender one was born as, that came out wrong. You can learn to be one but not the other.

Granger wrote:

>Whatever people mean with gender these days is too abstract for me to grasp, which is always what's caused me to struggle so much with understanding the dysphoria.
For the other part it might be easier if you take this apart into 3 scales.

Sex.
Sex simply is your phyiscal, and the easiest of those concepts, ranging from masculine (male) to feminime (female).

Gender.
Gender concerns itself with matters of identity, "who am i, who do i want to be", in short, how you see yourself. (This might be "I am a tomboy/want to be a tomboy".)
I wanna note here that this hardly is exclusive to trans people, everyone has a gender and gender inconguencies manifest in pretty much everyone in comparision to how others see and identify you or what you might currently be. Its the self, philosophically speaking.

Expression.
Expression is how you show yourself to others, how you dress yourself, your manners and so on. What ultimatively leads to what you're being identified as, in some cases combined with your sex. ([name] is such a tomboy!) Fairly straighforward?

I don't think gender is something like a personal utopia, which is how I get it is (quite subjectively) to you. This just makes me see it like a fad. I wanted to be cool in primary school and my view of that was to be as much like the people I personally saw as "already cool", which just lead to me looking back at myself like being a complete dweeb back then.

The expression bit (as you explained it) also just seems like a personal delusion to me, like wishing to look successful, so you spend money on expensive clothes and driving a nice car hoping others will eventually view you as someone who is successul.

Granger wrote:

What makes gender dysphoria a mental illness is the strongly intensified discomfort between how you see yourself and what you might be. Consider for example how unhappy you are with, say, going into exremes, being called a nazi when you aint (at least as far you see yourself), normally not hugely distressing, but in this mental illness this is greatly exaggerated to the point of being unbearable. Hope that helps?

What trans people do is change their sex to match what they see themselfes as, often involving a change in expression also because of external factors where it wasnt acceptable for them to express themselfes that way. (yknow how girly boys get bullied or being different?)

Pronouns and all that jazz is completly aside from these things. (but i find it great you're using the grammatically correct they where apporative. Thats just something everyone should do irregardless of trans peoples existence.)

All I think of inspired by this and the previous statements is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-life_crisis

Granger wrote:

>Please don't accuse me of that.
I did not mean to accuse you of pedophilia, apologies.
Whats your point here exactly? Transistioning without piror puberty blocking likewise results in infertility. (Though theres hoping we'll attain this in the future, there are experiments with lab grown uteri and transplants. Looking forward to it! Last things i read that they've gone from organ transplants that are in only until delivery following artifical impregnation to creating organs we might be able to keep in on the basis that they're not donated, but cloned, potentially allowing a woman to experience periods again. No such tests in trans people yet though, for those cloned organs.)

That I can't ever personally consider a sex change not leading to fertility as successful. The world's not black and white and giving birth isn't what our lives revolve around, but I don't really see the point of undergoing sex change if it can't ever be complete. I doubt supplementary hormones can be enough to maintain a transplanted reproductory system, there's a lot more behind that makes the sex of a person what it is.

Granger wrote:

>I took nine years of theology in school, didn't you?
Theological class was mandatory in all my high-school years (10). It dealt with explaining the various religions (including the hindi from your example) and their views while abstaining from making political statements. (eg i wasnt taught that Jesus is THE saviour, but that Jesus is the saviour according to the Christian (and its sub branches). It dealt with a lot of theological theory, the similarities between the 3 major religions, their common roots for example.
You could not opt out of it. Thats what, imo, everyone should have been taught.

I think a child born into christendom should be taught in majority about christendom as long as they are in paper part of the church. It'd be silly not to focus on what's relevant to the child. Other religions obviously following suit. That being said, I find it extremely important to learn about why other religions exist, which we also learned and I personally was happy to learn. Biblical studies, however, are different. It's history lessons but for "why you at birth were baptised by a christian priest like your ancestors have for generations before". Such as what you describe next:

Granger wrote:

Latter at higher school levels i had the choice of various specific theological courses (think some university-like school level), but i picked none of them for my curriculum so i cant speak about their contents, but i suspect it would go further into how (for a christian course anyway) the bible was interpreted, and what the reasons were behind the interpretations. (like how "gays are sinners to burn in hell", when the scriptures never state as such, just retell tales of kings legislating against sodomy or how jesus taught forgiveness but peoples actions afterward were not as such)

---

Granger wrote:

>They increase immunity to becoming infected with HIV when taken daily
Im pretty sure they work the other way around, given to people already infected with HIV to supress their symptoms and infectivity. Which absolutely is something we should make avaiable freely and subsidize, because the point isnt to bail out that specific person, but to protect others, it works in tandem with encouraging condom use. Doing so protects you even, reducing your risk to ever contract HIV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-exposure_prophylaxis

Pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) is the use of drugs to prevent disease in people who have not yet been exposed to the disease-causing agent. The term typically refers to the use of antiviral drugs as a strategy for the prevention of HIV/AIDS.

PrEP is one of a number of HIV prevention strategies for people who are HIV negative but who also have higher-than-average risk of contracting HIV, including sexually active adults at increased risk of HIV (e.g. men who have sex with men), people who engage in injection drug use (see drug injection), and serodiscordant sexually active couples.

---

Granger wrote:

>You're missing my point. The parents who would send children to re-education are the same parents who would beat them for being LGBT. If this is the peaceful option, I think it needs to stay for a while.
Dont we have child protective services for this? Theres nothing better about putting them into those torture camps.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Last edited by fittan (2019-06-26 21:33:41)



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18176 2019-06-26 21:36:36

fittan
nup.pw/rPApJe.webm
From: irc://
Registered: 2015-10-30
Posts: 1,531
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

IppE wrote:
Brian OA wrote:
Granger wrote:

based

I dream of a world where based is word filtered with epic win

I could add a filter for that, but I think we'll keep the word filtering to that one word.

It's nice to see people actually talking here, should consider taking part in conversations myself sometimes.

Places you don't get banned in for speaking your mind & with no/minimal normalfag influence are rare. I'm sad that this place died down so hard even if its prime wasn't really impressive.



fittan.gif

Offline

^ #18177 2019-06-27 00:47:48

tupsu
Sales Manager
From: south finland
Registered: 2016-05-19
Posts: 1,296
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Granger seems to have taken over my part of the discussion really successfully, I haven't really had much to contribute

remember to kiss cute people regardless of their gender if you happen to like them


(´・ω・`)

Offline

^ #18178 2019-06-27 08:07:42

Granger
Cash Money
From: Germany, Kebabland
Registered: 2015-10-20
Posts: 967
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

fittan wrote:

I have a super hard time likening being "a leader/alpha" with being a woman edit: with becoming the opposite sex/gender one was born as, that came out wrong. You can learn to be one but not the other.

All im saying is that its about perception. eg, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck!

But i did? I learned to dress myself like a woman, how to speak (inflection) and sound (pitch, resonance) like a woman, i did not need to learn mannerisms too much, but that i did, too. Mabye you'll liken to me being a impostor next, cause im copying what women do, but im just gonna ahead and debunk that right there, thats how we do pretty much anything learning related. Girls learn to be women by looking how women do things, im no different from that.

I don't think gender is something like a personal utopia, which is how I get it is (quite subjectively) to you. This just makes me see it like a fad. I wanted to be cool in primary school and my view of that was to be as much like the people I personally saw as "already cool", which just lead to me looking back at myself like being a complete dweeb back then.

The expression bit (as you explained it) also just seems like a personal delusion to me, like wishing to look successful, so you spend money on expensive clothes and driving a nice car hoping others will eventually view you as someone who is successul.

I wouldnt call it a personal utopia, just how you see yourself. Which of course might be a super utopian version thats perfect and everything, but thats narcissistic people only really. What do you think gender is if its not how you see yourself?

What makes this different from a fad is that i didnt transistion for others, to seem "cool" or anything. I dont wanna stand out, quite the opposite, which is why i put so much effort into this: to blend in (as much as possible, i AM quite tall for a woman, but not outlandishly so, could've been pervented by letting me transiston before 18 but people are (understandably) iffy about that) and only be a normal girl. Its not to fit into a clique or anything, either. Trans people eventually leave the trans community behind, but they dont stop being trans. Ill grant you that there are people around with other motivations, but thats hardly the entirety of whats happening, please dont discredit trans people based on that. Its like saying gay people dont exist because theres gay hags. Not cool, get me?

For this specific example i just wanna say that the first step to being successful often is appearing successful, because that'll lead yourself better opportunities. Business life, and all too often social life sadly is about facades. You do dress extra nice and groom yourself before you go to those interviews right? None hires a hobo afterall.
Not quite how i meant it for what i did and really what i did, but yes. At the risk of repeating myself, i am woman because i do the things a woman does causing others to see me as a woman. There isnt really much more to this, i dont need to be making a lot of money or anything like that, like for actually being successful is.
After all, what is a woman changed quite a bit over the years, didnt it? Women today wouldnt be called womanly 3 decades ago.

All I think of inspired by this and the previous statements is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_syndrome

So you think trans people only exist because they "failed at being men"? In a way, i suppose, i did fail. I couldnt bear living in a reality of body horror. Imagine if someone told you to just live with some parasite growing out of your face. Its incredibly reductionist and dismissive of what the reality of being trans is, and indeed what trans people are. I didnt fail at being a boy, i've been a boy alright, i just hated it with every single bit of my being. Nor did i fail to grow up into my adult responsibilities.

Im one to argue for gender dysphoria to be recategorized as (sexual) development disorder, but its certainly not this! Not even close.

No i dont think so. First of all, this isnt applicable in what age ranges this occurs. Trans people tend to realize that something is wrong as soon as the age 10 and even younger. Some claim they always knew "since birth" but im gonna call it a exaggeration. It becomes notable for trans people as soon as societal expectations between boys and girls differ (quite early already) and then extra so during the onset of puberty. And then, nothing about this does anything with feeling uncertain. Ask any trans person, we're confident that we want to be the other sex.

That I can't ever personally consider a sex change not leading to fertility as successful. The world's not black and white and giving birth isn't what our lives revolve around, but I don't really see the point of undergoing sex change if it can't ever be complete. I doubt supplementary hormones can be enough to maintain a transplanted reproductory system, there's a lot more behind that makes the sex of a person what it is.

Well its as successful as it can be right now. Transistioning has way way better outcomes than not transistioning.
Its not worth doing because its not perfect is a fallacity, you know? It absolutely is. May it be even better for those after me. There wont be perfection in those things until we have consicous uploading and our bodies are mere vessels truly.

Oh yeah like, we need to look that the chromosomes match! Like we do with hearts and stuff. Wait. We dont. There is actually a study that suggest that outcomes tend to be better in same sex donor-recipent relationships, yet we dont have much of a problem transplanting womens hearts into men, which happens due neccessity. (women are far more likely to donate organs than men, conversely men recieve more organ transplants than women)
Finally, as i mentioned, people are looking into using labgrown organs, which wouldnt have any genetic mismatch at all if i understood right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-exposure_prophylaxis

Pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) is the use of drugs to prevent disease in people who have not yet been exposed to the disease-causing agent. The term typically refers to the use of antiviral drugs as a strategy for the prevention of HIV/AIDS.

PrEP is one of a number of HIV prevention strategies for people who are HIV negative but who also have higher-than-average risk of contracting HIV, including sexually active adults at increased risk of HIV (e.g. men who have sex with men), people who engage in injection drug use (see drug injection), and serodiscordant sexually active couples.

---

We were talking about Antiretrovirals not Pre-exposure prophylaxis, were we? These?

Last edited by Granger (2019-06-27 09:43:38)


Life is like a box of chocolates. But theres no candies in there for you.

Offline

^ #18179 2019-06-27 08:10:10

Granger
Cash Money
From: Germany, Kebabland
Registered: 2015-10-20
Posts: 967
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

tupsu wrote:

Granger seems to have taken over my part of the discussion really successfully, I haven't really had much to contribute

remember to kiss cute people regardless of their gender if you happen to like them

Im curious if you disagree with me on some points? A few of my points were rather controversial within the trans community when i still participated. (me getting called truscum f.e, or me being called transphobic even for daring to go stealth/viewing that as the goal)


Life is like a box of chocolates. But theres no candies in there for you.

Offline

^ #18180 2019-06-27 10:22:58

IppE
Complaints Department
From: Funland
Registered: 2015-10-19
Posts: 2,294
Website

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

IppE wrote:

https://mei.tuuba.moe/RWoNbC.png

fell for the linux on laptop meme and my god it is actually comfy once you get the kinks figured out

sorry for derailing an actually intelligent discussion, but it's been 6 months since I posted this and... things escalated

Screenshot_2019-06-23_23-41-43.png

still comfy af though

Offline

Board footer

Cookie policy

Powered by Maki (r138/git:c447f31)

mascot