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^ #18181 2019-06-28 21:33:49
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
tupsu wrote:Granger seems to have taken over my part of the discussion really successfully, I haven't really had much to contribute
remember to kiss cute people regardless of their gender if you happen to like them
Im curious if you disagree with me on some points? A few of my points were rather controversial within the trans community when i still participated. (me getting called truscum f.e, or me being called transphobic even for daring to go stealth/viewing that as the goal)
I would probably also be seen as an evil gatekeeper and truscum by the people who use that latter term yes
my general view is that people are in charge of their own lives and should identify as they please, within some bound. I tend to state my main bound as 'could it plausibly occur naturally?' - so genderfluid people for example are cool in my book, but otherkin probably not so much (also they really don't belong in trans spaces imo, animals aren't genders)
also, I do think there's a number of over-identification issues in the community. as the term I'm using for it is implying, the result is that a number of people (often young and impressionable, or having other problems in life) end up identifying as trans, and later reconsidering - the problem, then, being whether they've gone through any irreversible procedures in that time.
I guess an attempt at a brief sum of my views could be:
- let people identify as they please, but I and many others probs won't take someone claiming they're a cat seriously
- as an extension, any kind of modifications or procedures should as a general rule be up to the person to undertake or decide upon
- however, due to current society and internet communities, a number of (in particular young) people seem to currently be beginning to transition, then eventually regretting it and reversing what they can
- hence, I presently support time restrictions on when people can continue with non-reversible or difficult to reverse procedures; however, if (and hopefully when) the social aspects change, I feel it should move to the discretion of the person, possibly with a psychologist's sign-off (though I don't feel that's the best approach at all)
- under-18s should wait until 18 (or whatever the age of majority happens to be where you are) for non-reversible stuff, but puberty blockers are good by me.
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^ #18182 2019-06-30 10:59:58
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
All im saying is that its about perception. eg, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck!
But i did? I learned to dress myself like a woman, how to speak (inflection) and sound (pitch, resonance) like a woman, i did not need to learn mannerisms too much, but that i did, too. Mabye you'll liken to me being a impostor next, cause im copying what women do, but im just gonna ahead and debunk that right there, thats how we do pretty much anything learning related. Girls learn to be women by looking how women do things, im no different from that.
You are what you make of yourself (see my earlier point of modifications are totally cool by me) but what I think is a tad weird is expecting everyone to conform with the belief that adapting to the mannerisms of another gender or culture makes one that gender or culture. A foreigner in Finland, however thoroughly raised in Finnish circumstances, is always a foreigner. Never a Finn, the genes aren't there. After a few generations with Finnish influence, their descendants may be considered Finnish, but this isn't something you can do with gender.
On a complete side-node, as a non-argument and out of pure curiosity:
being trans isnt a identity to me as much being deaf is a identity to me (being both trans and deaf)
How did you learn how to differentiate pitch? It's impressive as hell if you succeeded in this.
I wouldnt call it a personal utopia, just how you see yourself. Which of course might be a super utopian version thats perfect and everything, but thats narcissistic people only really. What do you think gender is if its not how you see yourself?
What makes this different from a fad is that i didnt transistion for others, to seem "cool" or anything. I dont wanna stand out, quite the opposite, which is why i put so much effort into this: to blend in (as much as possible, i AM quite tall for a woman, but not outlandishly so, could've been pervented by letting me transiston before 18 but people are (understandably) iffy about that) and only be a normal girl. Its not to fit into a clique or anything, either. Trans people eventually leave the trans community behind, but they dont stop being trans. Ill grant you that there are people around with other motivations, but thats hardly the entirety of whats happening, please dont discredit trans people based on that. Its like saying gay people dont exist because theres gay hags. Not cool, get me?
For this specific example i just wanna say that the first step to being successful often is appearing successful, because that'll lead yourself better opportunities. Business life, and all too often social life sadly is about facades. You do dress extra nice and groom yourself before you go to those interviews right? None hires a hobo afterall.
Not quite how i meant it for what i did and really what i did, but yes. At the risk of repeating myself, i am woman because i do the things a woman does causing others to see me as a woman. There isnt really much more to this, i dont need to be making a lot of money or anything like that, like for actually being successful is.
After all, what is a woman changed quite a bit over the years, didnt it? Women today wouldnt be called womanly 3 decades ago.
It's not sad that life is about façades, you can't be trusted to be successful unless you go through great lengths to radiate success. For a lot of people though, that's not the goal of success (but I digress). What's my point is that my view of the ordeal IS the façade, that it is one and that it is all that it is. I'm okay with expressing oneself with how one wants to be viewed, but not expecting to be viewed as such. Get me?
So you think trans people only exist because they "failed at being men"? In a way, i suppose, i did fail. I couldnt bear living in a reality of body horror. Imagine if someone told you to just live with some parasite growing out of your face. Its incredibly reductionist and dismissive of what the reality of being trans is, and indeed what trans people are. I didnt fail at being a boy, i've been a boy alright, i just hated it with every single bit of my being. Nor did i fail to grow up into my adult responsibilities.
Im one to argue for gender dysphoria to be recategorized as (sexual) development disorder, but its certainly not this! Not even close.
Nah, a person exhibiting Peter Pan Syndrome is refusing to come to terms with the hardships of life and that overcoming them (literally just dealing with them) is necessary to become a functioning cog in the machine of society. Not believing sex reassignment procedures are very successful (at least in their current state) I think better practice would be to strongly encourage not to undergo them and to come to terms with the hardships of life.
No i dont think so. First of all, this isnt applicable in what age ranges this occurs. Trans people tend to realize that something is wrong as soon as the age 10 and even younger. Some claim they always knew "since birth" but im gonna call it a exaggeration. It becomes notable for trans people as soon as societal expectations between boys and girls differ (quite early already) and then extra so during the onset of puberty. And then, nothing about this does anything with feeling uncertain. Ask any trans person, we're confident that we want to be the other sex.
This one admittedly applies almost exclusively to the case tupsu described better than I could. I am not claiming this is all there is to gender dysphoria, please don't read into this one too heavily.
- however, due to current society and internet communities, a number of (in particular young) people seem to currently be beginning to transition, then eventually regretting it and reversing what they can
---
Well its as successful as it can be right now. Transistioning has way way better outcomes than not transistioning.
Its not worth doing because its not perfect is a fallacity, you know? It absolutely is. May it be even better for those after me. There wont be perfection in those things until we have consicous uploading and our bodies are mere vessels truly.
I seriously hope for the sake of every form of national and international security that we are never able to leave our bodies in exchange for another one. Ever.
Oh yeah like, we need to look that the chromosomes match! Like we do with hearts and stuff. Wait. We dont. There is actually a study that suggest that outcomes tend to be better in same sex donor-recipent relationships, yet we dont have much of a problem transplanting womens hearts into men, which happens due neccessity. (women are far more likely to donate organs than men, conversely men recieve more organ transplants than women)
Finally, as i mentioned, people are looking into using labgrown organs, which wouldnt have any genetic mismatch at all if i understood right.
I'm going to want a source on the labgrown organs, I assume you've read into it a lot more than I have so you know what's worth reading. I'm intrigued.
We were talking about Antiretrovirals not Pre-exposure prophylaxis, were we? These?
No, actually, the original article mentions PrEp and how unfair and homophobic it is to not make sure they are always available at the cost of the government. Use a condom.
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^ #18183 2019-06-30 21:31:34
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
This one admittedly applies almost exclusively to the case tupsu described better than I could. I am not claiming this is all there is to gender dysphoria, please don't read into this one too heavily.
actually, no, I don't think so - the age group I'm discussing is the late teens (15-19), once those get into deeper online socialisation and certain social networks (in particular tumblr and certain parts of twitter). if a kid below, say, 10, is exhibiting gender dysphoria, I'd be willing to bet it's not a learned behaviour/what I'm describing, unless their parents are specifically shaming them on their gender or some such matter.
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^ #18184 2019-06-30 22:24:32
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
fittan wrote:This one admittedly applies almost exclusively to the case tupsu described better than I could. I am not claiming this is all there is to gender dysphoria, please don't read into this one too heavily.
actually, no, I don't think so - the age group I'm discussing is the late teens (15-19), once those get into deeper online socialisation and certain social networks (in particular tumblr and certain parts of twitter). if a kid below, say, 10, is exhibiting gender dysphoria, I'd be willing to bet it's not a learned behaviour/what I'm describing, unless their parents are specifically shaming them on their gender or some such matter.
I haven't talked to anyone in that age range. I have, however, spoken to a lot of people during the time I and them was/were 16/17-21/22 while they were having their crossdressing phase and were considering HRT until they realised they were just young, afraid of the world and vulnerable to influence of the internet and easy attention.
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^ #18185 2019-07-01 02:41:08
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
You are what you make of yourself (see my earlier point of modifications are totally cool by me) but what I think is a tad weird is expecting everyone to conform with the belief that adapting to the mannerisms of another gender or culture makes one that gender or culture. A foreigner in Finland, however thoroughly raised in Finnish circumstances, is always a foreigner. Never a Finn, the genes aren't there. After a few generations with Finnish influence, their descendants may be considered Finnish, but this isn't something you can do with gender.
No, im not expecting people to treat me like that, its just what happens because they see me as one. (at least in my case.) Not all transwomen are this fortunate sadly and im not sure what do, especially when they put a geniune effort, but in all cases they should be afforded their basic respect. Those that dont (those that dont even shave, like wtf?), i do not condone having expectations of being treated as woman fully. You are what you do, not what you say you are. This might sound weird to you with your view regarding trans people (since you think im not a woman), but its especially relevant to things like otherkin. Im not impressed or treating you a certain way until you actually appear that way, expecting otherwise is what makes this delusion.
I find it a bit weird you liken nationality to genes, when, as with "being a woman", its about social appearances (theres no finland gene, or even just a specific phenotype), you'd never call someone whos toroughly imbued with finnish ideals, history and culture (as in, actually knows his shit and isnt a fin-weebshit), living in finland a foreigner because hes not foreign to those things. Basically hes not finn-born (as in born in Finland), but he isnt foreign to Finland. Id never claim im female, im de facto not female, but in social matters i am most definitively a woman. Thats the thing, its a social construct just how being a fin is a social construct. Id actually call becoming a fin much more difficult than becoming a woman because the former is much more specific and doesnt vary that much from place to place. (ever tried to define what a modern woman is without sounding like either some real old fashioned misogynist or otherwise offensive as hell without ending up wishy washy?)
On a complete side-node, as a non-argument and out of pure curiosity:
Granger wrote:being trans isnt a identity to me as much being deaf is a identity to me (being both trans and deaf)
How did you learn how to differentiate pitch? It's impressive as hell if you succeeded in this.
Long story short, essentially all sounds are vibrations, pitch is how it vibrates (small but rapid waves is high pitch, vice versa is low pitch.). With some training you can feel for this, as deaf person i feel sound more than i actually hear like you do. You can test this fairly easily yourself, get a big speaker, put a metal something thats fairly flat on it and then put a thin layer of sand on that (it'll form different shapes depending on pitch). Or more fun, go to a concert and stand infront/sit on one of those giant speakers and get your bones rattled. Maybe not as fun if you actually can hear though.
I dont actually know how i sound to others since i cant hear myself (recording your speech and playing it back to yourself is a common trick for training your pitch) but this happens to you too, how you hear yourself is quite different to how others hear your due your jaw bones (and some other bones) picking up those vibrations and carrying them to your ears. THAT is how i hear.
You might be interrested in googling "cochlea implant", which enables deaf people to hear by picking up sound and translating it into vibrations to those bones.
It's not sad that life is about façades, you can't be trusted to be successful unless you go through great lengths to radiate success. For a lot of people though, that's not the goal of success (but I digress). What's my point is that my view of the ordeal IS the façade, that it is one and that it is all that it is. I'm okay with expressing oneself with how one wants to be viewed, but not expecting to be viewed as such. Get me?
See first paragraph.
Nah, a person exhibiting Peter Pan Syndrome is refusing to come to terms with the hardships of life and that overcoming them (literally just dealing with them) is necessary to become a functioning cog in the machine of society. Not believing sex reassignment procedures are very successful (at least in their current state) I think better practice would be to strongly encourage not to undergo them and to come to terms with the hardships of life.
Try and apply that logic to other things and you'll realize how dumb that actually is. Anything is better than being a quad amputee, crude prostheses better life quality and basically everything for that massively already. We've studies that transistion is overwhelmingly successful even at our current ability, beating out even antidepressiva, for treatment effectiveness for their respective problems. All that though hinges on social acceptance, for someone like me with a supportive enviroment things go great, but for someone who loses EVERYTHING for daring to want to transistion things look rather grim.
Thats not a fault of the treatment quality we can achieve.
That 54% suicide statistic is caused by untreated gender dysphoria (all trans people together), going down to slightly above the social averange (being 13ish% appartently) on successful transistion (people who have transistioned and now live as the opposite sex). The one commonly cited study for "transistion increases suicice risk" is being misinterpreted, it doesnt say any such thing, quite the opposite actually, since it connects the regets to social rejection. That is that people that are out and being shunned have a increased suicide risk than people who are not out, seems pretty obvious now doesnt it?
Being shunned is akin to depriving a plant of watering, people wither, shivel and eventually get so sick mentally, that they kill themselfes.
Fun fact, homosexuality used to have stats that dont look dislimilar to this, weird!
And ill say that, on some way i reget transistioning, I lost a lot of friends (who fairly transparently just faded away because they were trying to avoid me now) and eventually replaced most in my life including my job to go stealth. Sacrifices have been made. I wont ever go back on transistioning though, i dont reget now being a woman at all.
I seriously hope for the sake of every form of national and international security that we are never able to leave our bodies in exchange for another one. Ever.
I agree, it'd be a massive secturity risk.
I'm going to want a source on the labgrown organs, I assume you've read into it a lot more than I have so you know what's worth reading. I'm intrigued.
Im afraid i dont exactly keep up with it. Last i heard was that they cloned a pig heart, claimed that it'd be theoretically viable as heart for humans but i havent heard of human trials involving cloned organs, pig or otherwise. Mostly a lot of future may bring this, not unlike all those new battery techs you hear faffing about and nothing seems to happen because of practicality issues (the COST of making it a common thing mostly).
Still exciting a little, but way too late for me now. Theres people holding out for better tech but i dont fancy getting my vagina at 60+ if that only. Thats long past where you'd be having lots of sexual fun, if any at all.
No, actually, the original article mentions PrEp and how unfair and homophobic it is to not make sure they are always available at the cost of the government. Use a condom.
Then i do indeed agree, there should be more emphasis on practicising safe sex and vetting your partner(s). I still dont think it should be a thing to be avoided entirely though, this has some paralels to hormonal contraceptives. It should be a option i think. Freely avaiable but not subsidized seems fair.
Life is like a box of chocolates.
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^ #18186 2019-07-01 14:43:42
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
No, im not expecting people to treat me like that, its just what happens because they see me as one. (at least in my case.) Not all transwomen are this fortunate sadly and im not sure what do, especially when they put a geniune effort, but in all cases they should be afforded their basic respect. Those that dont (those that dont even shave, like wtf?), i do not condone having expectations of being treated as woman fully. You are what you do, not what you say you are. This might sound weird to you with your view regarding trans people (since you think im not a woman), but its especially relevant to things like otherkin. Im not impressed or treating you a certain way until you actually appear that way, expecting otherwise is what makes this delusion.
It's admirable for sure for you to have succeeded in practically becoming a woman and you should very much allowed to be a woman in your day to day life, my big gripe is with de jure making it so and encouraging individuals to strive to de jure become one. It's not about the procedure existing or taking place, it's about the legal definition dimming to the point of redundancy. Whom I consider a woman or not should mean jack shit to anyone, I will use whatever (genuine) pronouns someone seems like they want me to in order to not be a cunt but I don't support legal sex change. Also, I don't even want to entertain the thought of otherkin being a thing; perceivably genuine cases of species dysphoria are easily diagnosed as something else (read: Peter Pan Syndrome/Chuunibyou/GD).
I find it a bit weird you liken nationality to genes, when, as with "being a woman", its about social appearances (theres no finland gene, or even just a specific phenotype), you'd never call someone whos toroughly imbued with finnish ideals, history and culture (as in, actually knows his shit and isnt a fin-weebshit), living in finland a foreigner because hes not foreign to those things. Basically hes not finn-born (as in born in Finland), but he isnt foreign to Finland. Id never claim im female, im de facto not female, but in social matters i am most definitively a woman. Thats the thing, its a social construct just how being a fin is a social construct. Id actually call becoming a fin much more difficult than becoming a woman because the former is much more specific and doesnt vary that much from place to place. (ever tried to define what a modern woman is without sounding like either some real old fashioned misogynist or otherwise offensive as hell without ending up wishy washy?)
I'd actually rather nationality was decided by predominant genetic heritage rather than any form of jus soli. A child of two nationalities should automatically carry either one of the parents' (usually mother's, like how the Jewish do it) but to me rather not both nationalities. I'm digressing again because the overall topic is becoming a bit exhausted. What I continuously refer to as the façade isn't really as much of a social construct in my opinion as it is society as a whole and what actually constitutes as social constructs are the continuous efforts to alter what façades are acceptable and which ones are not. I think there is a distinction, albeit a very mild one!
Long story short, essentially all sounds are vibrations, pitch is how it vibrates (small but rapid waves is high pitch, vice versa is low pitch.). With some training you can feel for this, as deaf person i feel sound more than i actually hear like you do. You can test this fairly easily yourself, get a big speaker, put a metal something thats fairly flat on it and then put a thin layer of sand on that (it'll form different shapes depending on pitch). Or more fun, go to a concert and stand infront/sit on one of those giant speakers and get your bones rattled. Maybe not as fun if you actually can hear though.
I dont actually know how i sound to others since i cant hear myself (recording your speech and playing it back to yourself is a common trick for training your pitch) but this happens to you too, how you hear yourself is quite different to how others hear your due your jaw bones (and some other bones) picking up those vibrations and carrying them to your ears. THAT is how i hear.
You might be interrested in googling "cochlea implant", which enables deaf people to hear by picking up sound and translating it into vibrations to those bones.
Thanks, I'll read up on it.
Try and apply that logic to other things and you'll realize how dumb that actually is. Anything is better than being a quad amputee, crude prostheses better life quality and basically everything for that massively already. We've studies that transistion is overwhelmingly successful even at our current ability, beating out even antidepressiva, for treatment effectiveness for their respective problems. All that though hinges on social acceptance, for someone like me with a supportive enviroment things go great, but for someone who loses EVERYTHING for daring to want to transistion things look rather grim.
Thats not a fault of the treatment quality we can achieve.
There's a lot less to understand about a human not being able to function because they lost four limbs than a human not being able to function because their passport says the wrong thing.
That 54% suicide statistic is caused by untreated gender dysphoria (all trans people together), going down to slightly above the social averange (being 13ish% appartently) on successful transistion (people who have transistioned and now live as the opposite sex). The one commonly cited study for "transistion increases suicice risk" is being misinterpreted, it doesnt say any such thing, quite the opposite actually, since it connects the regets to social rejection. That is that people that are out and being shunned have a increased suicide risk than people who are not out, seems pretty obvious now doesnt it?
Being shunned is akin to depriving a plant of watering, people wither, shivel and eventually get so sick mentally, that they kill themselfes.
Fun fact, homosexuality used to have stats that dont look dislimilar to this, weird!And ill say that, on some way i reget transistioning, I lost a lot of friends (who fairly transparently just faded away because they were trying to avoid me now) and eventually replaced most in my life including my job to go stealth. Sacrifices have been made. I wont ever go back on transistioning though, i dont reget now being a woman at all.
I never took either side of the suicide statistics to heart and don't use them to argue after having read both sides of the story. It's a convoluted mess of contradicting studies with subjective starting points.
Im afraid i dont exactly keep up with it. Last i heard was that they cloned a pig heart, claimed that it'd be theoretically viable as heart for humans but i havent heard of human trials involving cloned organs, pig or otherwise. Mostly a lot of future may bring this, not unlike all those new battery techs you hear faffing about and nothing seems to happen because of practicality issues (the COST of making it a common thing mostly).
Still exciting a little, but way too late for me now. Theres people holding out for better tech but i dont fancy getting my vagina at 60+ if that only. Thats long past where you'd be having lots of sexual fun, if any at all.
We're still very many years away, then.
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^ #18187 2019-07-01 19:00:39
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
tupsu wrote:fittan wrote:This one admittedly applies almost exclusively to the case tupsu described better than I could. I am not claiming this is all there is to gender dysphoria, please don't read into this one too heavily.
actually, no, I don't think so - the age group I'm discussing is the late teens (15-19), once those get into deeper online socialisation and certain social networks (in particular tumblr and certain parts of twitter). if a kid below, say, 10, is exhibiting gender dysphoria, I'd be willing to bet it's not a learned behaviour/what I'm describing, unless their parents are specifically shaming them on their gender or some such matter.
I haven't talked to anyone in that age range. I have, however, spoken to a lot of people during the time I and them was/were 16/17-21/22 while they were having their crossdressing phase and were considering HRT until they realised they were just young, afraid of the world and vulnerable to influence of the internet and easy attention.
I've not personally spoken to anyone still in that age range experiencing dysphoria either, but as Granger also said earlier, everyone who I know who's 'stuck to it' (i.e. not influenced by the internet but 'authentically' trans) has stated they started feeling uncomfortable/wrong about their body at around toddler age, and it only got worse as puberty appeared. what you are describing does sound about right for what I was describing, yes.
edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Suomi/comments … iv%C3%A4n/ fittan could find this interesting, it's a pretty nice AMA that covers a lot of the topics we've been discussing.
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^ #18188 2019-07-01 21:30:50
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
Kinda in a hurry right now but ill reply again later prolly
>Also, I don't even want to entertain the thought of otherkin being a thing; perceivably genuine cases of species dysphoria are easily diagnosed as something else (read: Peter Pan Syndrome/Chuunibyou/GD).
Thats basically what im saying. I dont belive in it until they actually do something about it, and i've yet to meet anyone who actually wants to live in the conditions a dog lives in. They all want the comforts and luxuries that come with being a human, nor do they actually want to act like a dog, virtually all cases that i met turned out to be some "spirit animal guide" stuff or whatever, or just plain fetishism.
Life is like a box of chocolates.
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^ #18189 2019-07-04 22:24:45
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
I'm going to get to go and hit people with plastic sticks padded with some pipe insulation for the weekend, wish me luck on that
I just hope my leg survives the affair, since it's been having a mystical pain for the last few days now
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^ #18190 2019-07-05 22:29:44
- silmarilen
- ציצימרילן
- Registered: 2015-12-29
- Posts: 306
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
Good luck yo.
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^ #18191 2019-07-08 20:59:48
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
another day another symptom of GAD
https://femto.pw/rnev.png
and now im showing schizophrenic symptoms again (unrelated to quoted post) i think fuck i wish i was in a life situation where i had the time for this shit
e: nevermind? i guess? just fever and anxiety-induced paranoia
Last edited by fittan (2019-07-09 17:18:19)
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^ #18192 2019-08-08 22:18:21
- silmarilen
- ציצימרילן
- Registered: 2015-12-29
- Posts: 306
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
hi
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^ #18193 2019-08-08 23:29:23
^ #18194 2019-08-20 20:26:16
- FuZ
- cancer incarnate
- From: france
- Registered: 2015-10-20
- Posts: 771
Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT
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^ #18195 2019-08-22 00:09:08
