ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

Aurelianus Augustus · ^

Well, from all the sources I've read so far, they seem to be the same fucking thing, but it's definitely not set in stone (ha-ha), so both of us are essentially correct, as neither can prove the other wrong. Furthermore, it was a joke, ya twat. :V

As for Saber being the ONLY one with a wish in Stay Night........... what? The hell did YOU watch, mate? :p
Even if she somehow WAS the only character with a wish, it's a shoddy as shit excuse for one. What's her reasoning behind wanting to undo her rule? No, regretting it is not a valid reason. It might be valid if there's more stitched into it, but as a sole reason, no, it's not deep enough for her to be chosen as a servant over literally anyone else.

We're also not gonna go into the source material, as we're talking about the adaptations only. In the anime, she's clearly into Shirou's fake cock, and there's no denying it.
Your waifu is

Beako is a little girl, and no, manipulating space and time is not a valid reason to fuck someone who is physically 7.
Crusch is meh.
Elsa best girl.
Priscilla close second.

Aurani · ^

No one batting for team Felt? Lil miss fuck everyone else because they're all a bunch of self-entitled pricks?
Also Beako cos fucking tea bitch that actually has interesting shit to say

Brian OA · ^

boo.

Honestly though, Caliburn is just another spelling for Excalibur, but many stories make a distinction to note that the sword in the stone is not the one handed to Arthur by the Lady of the Lake.

Anyway, I said she's the only one with a wish for the Grail. Everyone's else's motivations can be accomplished in some other way or another with the Grail being secondary or even tertiary to their interests.

Here, let's take a look for a minute at every Servant real quick:

▼Hidden text

Now, which of these Servants is going to need to lean on the Grail's wish-granting mechanism to accomplish their goal?

Regarding her wish, she was born and raised to lead Britain out of the shit it was in, devoted every waking and sleeping moment to it, and then failed miserably, probably only exacerbating the situation in the end. She simply couldn't accept such an outcome, that's all. She was ready to receive the short end of the stick herself, but instead, she saw her own country burn. How is that not deep enough to be chosen as a Servant? How does that even determine whether or not you can be a Servant?

Regarding the source material, that's not even accurate to the anime, go away.

>Wanting to fuck Beako
It's the fact that she excels above everyone else by sheer virtue of her character that she's the best

Aurelianus Augustus · ^

I mean if you condense everything BUT Saber's wish into the simplest form, of course hers is gonna sound like it's worth something.
The proof lies in your description of archer (shirou). He practically has the same sort of wish as Saber - wanting to undo a thing he did, yet you made it sound like his was more trivial than hers.
Also, I'm pretty sure I forgot half of it, but wasn't Gil's wish to reset humanity, since they grew to be disgusting corrupted shits? Talking about Stay Night here. That's more of a wish than Saber crying about her past.
I mean, sure, the rest of the characters have virtually no character to them at all, and I'd go as far to say that in both the Stay Nights and in Zero, only 2-3 characters ever really mean anything beyond being cannon fodder, but that does NOT mean Saber is any better, which brings me to my original point that she's pretty fucking shit.

Yeah, that also means that Gil is just as shit as the rest, which is sad, especially since all of them are used to advance the plot for the "main" characters that are Shirou, Kirei and Kiritsugu.

Beako excels? She literally has 8 cumulative minutes of screen time, 4 of it being filler. Which part of that advances her character in any way? She's on par with all the other side characters when it comes to character development - just there to add to drama/fun and get the Subaru-powered Emilia plot train rolling.

Brian OA · ^

Don't misunderstand me. I'm claiming that she's the only one to have a wish for the Grail, that's all. You said yourself that she had no reason to fight, so I explicitly told you why, noting how particular it is, and how determined she is for it, and now we're here. I don't need to compare them to make them look good or worse. Most of the characters are decent enough to stand on their own, Saber being no exception.

As for Gil, Gil doesn't really have a wish for the Grail past using it to stay materialized. His motivations do vary between routes somewhat in Fate/stay night, but it's a moot point. I'll just go ahead and say that if you're going to make these claims you can at least show some form of reasoning or justification behind them. I'll start: Resetting humanity isn't really that much more valuable on its own to begin with. A wish is supposed to work as the character's motivation; things like scale shouldn't really matter in the first place. The point is that it should fit the character, and you can see that with most of the Servants across the two entries very well. Some of them don't really have wishes to begin with, but their personality alone justifies it.

For example, Gilgamesh wants the Grail because that's just how full of himself he is. That's fine; it fits him and he plays that role very well, nuanced by the fact that he can, to some degree, back up all the shit he talks with either his firepower or his ancient, divine wisdom. Honestly, he's better in Zero by virtue of him displaying these nuances more than he does in Fate/stay night.

I'd go as far to say there are plenty of great characters to be found in Fate since most Servants end up following a similar format of an exaggerated yet nuanced personality but, by God, limiting yourself to the adaptations is going to really narrow your appreciation for them.

As for Saber, I'd honestly like to know what's your reasoning behind that one because I don't see what you would see that's so bad about her or her motivations and you haven't really expanded much on her, if at all. You've just been kind of assuming everyone's bad and comparing them to determine who's worse.

8 minutes is all Beako needed

Aurelianus Augustus · ^

I'm claiming that she's the only one to have a wish for the Grail, that's all.

But, I just showed you that she isn't the only one with the wish. Even if we go by the complexity and the logic behind the wish, she'd still not be the only servant with one.

I don't need to compare them to make them look good or worse.

By claiming that she's the only one with a wish (as quoted up there), you're quite literally contradicting the thing you just said, as you took her wish, compared it to the others, and came to the conclusion that the other servants' wishes are nothing compared to hers.
Now, I know you, and you're going to say how you're not comparing them, but actually stating that the others literally have no wish what-so-ever. Even then, you'd be wrong, as each and every one of them have a wish, no matter how silly.

As for Gil, Gil doesn't really have a wish for the Grail past using it to stay materialized. His motivations do vary between routes somewhat in Fate/stay night, but it's a moot point. I'll just go ahead and say that if you're going to make these claims you can at least show some form of reasoning or justification behind them. I'll start: Resetting humanity isn't really that much more valuable on its own to begin with. A wish is supposed to work as the character's motivation; things like scale shouldn't really matter in the first place. The point is that it should fit the character, and you can see that with most of the Servants across the two entries very well. Some of them don't really have wishes to begin with, but their personality alone justifies it.

Okay, we'll pretend that his wish is not to reset humanity, but to simply stay materialised so that he can do it himself. Even THEN, the wish to stay materialised is a proper one, and his motivations are strong, as there's a philosophical undertone to his ambition to achieve that goal. Saying that he "doesn't really have a wish" amounts to you mocking the complexity of his motivations (even though you just wrote how the scale doesn't matter), which in itself stems from an underlying comparison you're doing between the characters - something you claim not having done.

As for it fitting the character - it fits a couple of them, but not all, oh, no.
I don't agree with you at all that some of them don't have any wishes, as being summoned by the grail means you automatically having a wish (the banter between Gil and Kirei was all about that, remember?), and something as simple as protecting Illya forever is still a wish, no matter how minuscule it is.

For example, Gilgamesh wants the Grail because that's just how full of himself he is.

You're horribly oversimplifying his motivations. In one version, he says that he already owns the grail and that he merely wants to see if anyone is worthy of contesting it (which ties in nicely in relation to his powers, considering that no one can actually defeat him - and no, Shirou defeating him is about as unrealistic and retarded as it can be, mocking every servant in the process, most of all him), while in the other versions he isn't as fleshed out and actually fights for it to achieve the goal I wrote in the paragraph above.
I do completely agree with your statement that he's better in Zero, as his motivations go far past "obtain X to do Y for shits and giggles".

I'd go as far to say there are plenty of great characters to be found in Fate since most Servants end up following a similar format of an exaggerated yet nuanced personality but, by God, limiting yourself to the adaptations is going to really narrow your appreciation for them.

Our entire conversation here is happening because we're trying to limit ourselves to the adaptations. The entire reason we're having this talk is because I claimed how shoddily Saber was portrayed in the adaptations compared to the source material. I honestly appreciate quite a few of the characters in the original works, at least as far as you can appreciate something crudely written, which is the whole reason I stated how shit Saber was in the shows.

As for Saber, I'd honestly like to know what's your reasoning behind that one because I don't see what you would see that's so bad about her or her motivations and you haven't really expanded much on her, if at all. You've just been kind of assuming everyone's bad and comparing them to determine who's worse.

Honestly, if the amount of character building and psychologic wisdom you got from the shows is enough for you, that ends the conversation.
Sure, I expected nothing out of Stay Nights - it's just a fuckfest of action, but Zero is different. At the start of it we get pulled into this thrilling game of minds, only for it to fall flat when Kirei and Kiritsugu take a liking to each other's dicks. The entire cast's further development is set aside for the sake of those two, and that is why I said that Saber is as shit as Gil and practically everyone else, as it IS the case. I'm not comparing them in that regard - I'm stating the truth about their roles in Zero.
When you take a good look at it, Zero was actually pretty shonen-esque, under the pretense of an epic clash of ideologies and motivations.

I already know quite a few of the things you're going to say, so I'm awaiting your response, boya.

Brian OA · ^

But, I just showed you that she isn't the only one with the wish. Even if we go by the complexity and the logic behind the wish, she'd still not be the only servant with one.

For the Grail

Even if we had to go with complexity and logic, that's not really a method of elimination. That'd be more like ranking or sorting.

By claiming that she's the only one with a wish (as quoted up there), you're quite literally contradicting the thing you just said, as you took her wish, compared it to the others, and came to the conclusion that the other servants' wishes are nothing compared to hers.

I never came to such a conclusion to begin with. It's an observable fact that they have no wishes. I made that point to highlight her reason to fight.

Now, I know you, and you're going to say how you're not comparing them, but actually stating that the others literally have no wish what-so-ever. Even then, you'd be wrong, as each and every one of them have a wish, no matter how silly.

But it's true; they don't have a wish. They do have goals, yes, which I went and ahead and listed very concisely, but none of them need the Grail to grant it for them. It doesn't demerit their motivations or anything; it's just how it is.

Okay, we'll pretend that his wish is not to reset humanity, but to simply stay materialised so that he can do it himself. Even THEN, the wish to stay materialised is a proper one, and his motivations are strong, as there's a philosophical undertone to his ambition to achieve that goal. Saying that he "doesn't really have a wish" amounts to you mocking the complexity of his motivations (even though you just wrote how the scale doesn't matter), which in itself stems from an underlying comparison you're doing between the characters - something you claim not having done.

He doesn't want to do that, though. At best, he'd wish for that due to the mud's influence over him by the time UBW happens. You don't really have to have the Grail grant a wish to keep a Servant materialized; bathing in its contents is enough on its own.

I'm not really mocking the complexity of his motivations. It just seems that you're assigning something completely off the mark to him when his motivations are fairly straightforward. Which, again, doesn't demerit it or anything. It fits and works for him. (The scale of the wish, whether it involves a country or the whole planet, shouldn't matter. I don't really see how it somehow makes it better.)

As for it fitting the character - it fits a couple of them, but not all, oh, no.

Like?

I don't agree with you at all that some of them don't have any wishes, as being summoned by the grail means you automatically having a wish (the banter between Gil and Kirei was all about that, remember?), and something as simple as protecting Illya forever is still a wish, no matter how minuscule it is.

Again, they do have goals which is why they even bother answering the summons, but it's not something they ultimately need the Grail for. While the Grail creates a setting where they can achieve said goals, the Grail ends up being secondary or even tertiary to their interests.

You're horribly oversimplifying his motivations. In one version, he says that he already owns the grail and that he merely wants to see if anyone is worthy of contesting it (which ties in nicely in relation to his powers, considering that no one can actually defeat him - and no, Shirou defeating him is about as unrealistic and retarded as it can be, mocking every servant in the process, most of all him), while in the other versions he isn't as fleshed out and actually fights for it to achieve the goal I wrote in the paragraph above.
I do completely agree with your statement that he's better in Zero, as his motivations go far past "obtain X to do Y for shits and giggles".

I mean, yes, I am simplifying his motivations, but only for the sake of convenience. I'm just stating an example of a Servant who's explicitly stated that he has no wish with a functional motivation that's perfectly fine.

Our entire conversation here is happening because we're trying to limit ourselves to the adaptations. The entire reason we're having this talk is because I claimed how shoddily Saber was portrayed in the adaptations compared to the source material. I honestly appreciate quite a few of the characters in the original works, at least as far as you can appreciate something crudely written, which is the whole reason I stated how shit Saber was in the shows.

Yes and no. Zero still does a terrible job for her, anime or no. I can see that pretty well and I could very well beat that horse with further points, but that's for another time. UBW still does a passable job for her, anime or no.

Honestly, if the amount of character building and psychologic wisdom you got from the shows is enough for you, that ends the conversation.

Well no, but that's neither here nor there.

Sure, I expected nothing out of Stay Nights - it's just a fuckfest of action, but Zero is different. At the start of it we get pulled into this thrilling game of minds, only for it to fall flat when Kirei and Kiritsugu take a liking to each other's dicks. The entire cast's further development is set aside for the sake of those two, and that is why I said that Saber is as shit as Gil and practically everyone else, as it IS the case. I'm not comparing them in that regard - I'm stating the truth about their roles in Zero.
When you take a good look at it, Zero was actually pretty shonen-esque, under the pretense of an epic clash of ideologies and motivations.
I already know quite a few of the things you're going to say, so I'm awaiting your response, boya.

It's for another time.

Aurelianus Augustus · ^

So it all basically boils down to you claiming they have a goal, but not a wish, while I say that goal = wish.
If you take Gil into consideration, he did not know he could stay materialised merely by bathing in the mud, which means he had to have had a wish PRIOR to having been summoned, no? I don't know if there's some minor dialogue in the novels that further explains the intricacies of why a servant is summoned, but in the show we easily reach a conclusion (from what the characters themselves have told us) that someone is summoned because they have lingering wishes (I'm pretty sure Archer of Black from Apocrypha repeated that same line).
Now, even IF goals do not equal wishes, the fact that they were summoned tells you that they all automatically have wishes, even if the goals they set for themselves after they were summoned don't have anything to do with it. I mean, just because Berserker's goal is to protect Illya forevermore after she got attacked by those rabid wolves, it doesn't mean that's what he was summoned to do. The anime doesn't ever tell what most of the servants' wishes are, but that doesn't mean they don't have one; they just don't want to share it or the anime didn't give a shit explaining it.

Now, as for your question which servants don't fit their character... where do I begin.... do we expand unto the entire fate universe or just stay nights and zero? There's a fuckton of them who don't match their "real-life" mythological character.
Then again, it should also be a pretty silly question considering that our two most beloved characters - Arthur and Gilgamesh, are nothing like they are in mythology. Heck, Arthur is a fucking woman in those 3 adaptations.

Pretty sure if Arthur existed as a historic entity, he's rolling in his fucking grave.

P.S. This reminds me of something you'd probably do

.

tupsu · ^

InsectProxy wrote:

Nice.
We also have that stream thread if you want to start a poll or something.
Idk if my schedule will line up to watch the stream but I'll keep an eye out for updates.

what day works for you? it's a combination of viewer availablility and whether I'm feeling like absolute shit or not. happy to take suggestions, but I'd rather not do a full on poll and then ignore it when it turns out I spend the day just wanting to sleep and drown in sweets

thelewa · ^

a fucking grave sounds radical

InsectProxy · ^

tupsu wrote:

what day works for you? it's a combination of viewer availablility and whether I'm feeling like absolute shit or not. happy to take suggestions, but I'd rather not do a full on poll and then ignore it when it turns out I spend the day just wanting to sleep and drown in sweets

My work schedule is extremely unpredictable but I can guarantee Monday. Also if everyone's schedule's don't line up it might be a good idea to have vod available.

As far as the poll I was just thinking about a simple what game to play first/more sort of thing.

[angry walls of fate debate]
Excalibur wasn't the sword in the stone, either. That was Caliburn.
[more angry walls of fate debate]

This always reminds me of talking Caliburn in Sonic and the Black Knight and I hate the game but still appreciate how Sonk is almost accurate with the origin of Caliburn and Excalibur until Caliburn voltrons into Excalibur.

Last edited by InsectProxy (2017-08-30 13:22:06)

Aurelianus Augustus · ^

[EPIC WALL OF FATE DEBATE]

InsectProxy · ^

[THE ONLY WAY TO FATE DEBATE]

Last edited by InsectProxy (2017-08-30 13:45:21)

SaigonAlice · ^

My fucking god, Fate Stay Night is not that fucking deep.

Also Gilgamesh is an Akio ripoff.

Oh sweet mama!

Last edited by SaigonAlice (2017-08-30 13:46:05)

IppE · ^

Prisma illya best fateshit and also canon.

^ #17356 2017-08-29 20:15:47

Re: ITT: Pretend we are still writing in osu! OT

^ #17357 2017-08-29 21:07:31

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^ #17358 2017-08-29 22:09:41

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^ #17369 2017-08-30 13:45:05

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